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109515-the-music-of-wildstar-anyone-else-feel-its-a-little-generic
Content ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- Ooooooh! I get you. Yeah, there are definitely a couple of songs obviously "inspired by" other music. I can't remember which one is was, but my wife heard it and remarked that it sounded familiar to her. Dang if I can remember what she said it was though. I know one of the song reminded me of the old Spy Hunter video game. | |} ---- ---- That's called style and theme. Jeff has made some tremendously unique pieces that blend nostalgia from 90's / early 00's era Sci-Fi and adventure games with novel a post-modern flair. I can't think of a single song in W* that seems to be a direct continuation from those in another game; and as for the musical themes within the game (e.g. the progression of 'the cold science of supremacy' that finds its way into the Eldan influenced zone music; and even the strain infected eldan content with a significantly darker tone...). It all fits great and sounds amazing IMO. The Music is one of the best artistic aspects of the game. when you enter your first exolab and hear the cold science of supremacy; to the faction specific versions when in an archaeological site run by either faction (There are both dominion and exile versions of CSoS); to the strain plagued grimvault whose music contains the same note progression as CSoS)... It all builds on a centra musical theme, with awesome effect IMO | |} ---- ---- ---- No, we get it, like I said, that's called Theme. Replace Wildstar with Starwars. Listen to all 6 starwars soundtracks and you'll notice they all sound like part of the same piece, because they all share the same theme. Same with W*. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- Honestly, this is already mostly the case. Even near-identical zones tend to have varied tracks based on context. Take tCSoS ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67JjCicJZgU ) Standard exolab / Eldan stuff music as an example. Then go to an exolab / eldan site controlled by the exiles / parts of the biomes in Farside, and have a remix of tCCoS with Exile themes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX9jSklwkIA Then go to an eldan site controlled by the Dominion, for their version https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLqM-a8VJn8 Then get to tense fast paces parts of the story in a massive Eldan weapon where you are racing the clock to save the world https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He_q14SdiAs Then find the bane of the eldan, the strain, and listen to the same note progression with a heavily darkened tone https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OH2zLLi3zY Especially the shift from CSoS to Strain music. the theme is cleary there, but tremendously unique pieces. The first 4 are really near identical instances where normally only a single track would exist, but Jeff varied each one to fit it's slightly unique context, rather than just toss tCCoS in each area (which he 1) could have justifiably done; and 2) would indeed have been lazy). An example of game soundtracks that are actually lazy like you are referring to is the default starwars theme that is played in, oh, every instance in SWTOR. No variation, same song, played everywhere regardless of context. THAT is lazy, Jeff, I have to say, has done nothing of the sort. Class AAA music outa that guy. The Strain music vs tCCoS is a great example of hugely differnt songs with a strong thematic basis conveying the emotion and power of the situation (which for spoiler purposes I won't go into detail about here). | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- Ok I get it; but I still don't 100% agree. The music in Hyrule is more fast paced, because in those particular contexts there is a feeling of urgency. You have to save Hyrule, you have to get to Ganon, etc. In the zones you listed; they are open world zones in an MMO; the point is to not rush :). That said, the points in W* that DO feel urgent by game design (e.g. the Eldan Cannon and Ikthian invasion on Farside) get their music kicked up. Using CSoS again, compare carefully and leisurely exploring an Eldan Exolab ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67JjCicJZgU ) to a pressing, urgent situation ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He_q14SdiAs ) The Tempo's up, the pace is up, your adrenaline is up .... Time to commit genocide against the Ikthians. So I think I understand your criticism, correct me if I'm wrong but you don't like the largely relaxed tempo of most open world zones (as say, compared to the ''go save the world NAOW! " tempo from the LoZ series). I would say that in the examples you presented, that tempo is intentional, since where there is clear urgency, the music generally reflects it (e.g. battlegrounds have a nice mid tempo accompaniment). I can't argue with your opinion (it's yours after all) but I think that is what this really comes down to; preference between fast paced music of adventure games and the mid-paced music of action based MMO's (and the low tempo music of non-action MMO's too I'm sure). | |} ---- ---- Well, as a fellow Zelda and W* fan, I'll just have to agree to disagree. I can pick out the zones by music alone, and I know immediately when I've walked into Eldan territory. I think most of the W* music is certainly mroe subtle in the open world, but Drusera's music, the VC's music, the Eldan music, the Strain music, The Dominion Music, The Exile music... It all hits me as unique. As they say, your mileage may vary.... Unless you are Mario, then they say your princess is in another castle :) | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- There's an Explorer Path mission in Ellevar where you have to chase a Lopp around, and the music is very similar to Yakkity Sax. :D | |} ---- ---- ---- ...Now I'm going to have to make an Explorer just so I can do that mission. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- to be honest, the music is one of the few things I have heard people complain about | |} ---- ---- Hi Sciela, I understand that music is completely subjective. What tickles one person's fancy may not tickle another's ... and that's totally fine. That being said, I'm not sure how to respond to this. I can't agree with you because I don't think all the music from WildStar is the same song lacking personality. In fact, I think we did a great job of keeping all the music in the "WildStar tonal universe", but giving each zone a unique and fresh feel. Yes, we use orchestra a lot, but that doesn't mean it all sounds the same. Not all of Mozart's symphonies sound the same, though instrumentation may be similar. So while I understand you may not be in love with the entire soundtrack, I don't agree with your criticism of the score. It's not a cut-and-paste score from zone to zone with slight variations. So again, I appreciate the feedback - even though I don't agree with it - I can appreciate the fact that you're listening and critically thinking about music in video games, and as a composer I think that's important no matter what the feedback is. -jeff | |} ---- ---- Jeff, if you don't tone down that awesome sauce you are serving up you are going to break the Internet... Serious note: The OST for W* is quite possibly one of the best I've had the pleasure of listening to in a very long time. The first time; and every time I zone into an exo-lab and hear the cold science of supremacy I literally get shivers down my spine. I would be lying if I said the music wasn't one of the main reasons I enjoy W* as much as I do. Seriously, Thanks! | |} ---- ---- Love the music, Jeff, and I'm kind of glad you light up the forums every now and then. I appreciate whenever you guys drop in. For the record, though, I think the Eldan facility music is starting to give me hallucinations. | |} ---- That's definitely not a side effect of the secret Eldan tests being preformed on you while you sleep completely unrelated to the Game, Eldan, and/or any other product or service rendered (TM protostar) | |} ---- Protostar... Getting us ready for the new dungeon one test at a time | |} ---- Ah, OK… now we are at the heart of the issue. To say "classical music has no purpose and often doesn't feel alive" is an incredibly narrow viewpoint. Classical music does have a purpose - otherwise it wouldn't still be around after hundreds of years. For example, I don't eat SPAM… never have, maybe someday I'll try it… but I haven't yet… but it still exists, and it's still being made, so it serves a purpose to someone… not to me specifically, but there is a market for it (that's a weird analogy, but hopefully you understand what I mean). And classical music does feel alive. Maybe not to you, but you can't deny a wide range of people (myself included) who get an immense sense of emotional context and life from classical music. And to be sure, the beloved Koji Kondo would not have written your favorite music of all time if it weren't for classical music influences. Guaranteed. Your physical description of Thayd is accurate. But when writing music for a scene, there are multiple approaches. You are expecting the approach where the music is commentary on the surroundings, which can work fine (as you point out in Celestion). But I chose to do something different in Thayd. I wanted to comment on the Exiles themselves. They are huddled together preparing for war, but they are not the war machine that the Dominion is. They are ordinary people doing extraordinary things. There is an emotional undertone to that city that breathes life into who the Exiles are and what they are fighting for. Set that emotional context against the contrasting Osun ruins and it paints a picture of overcoming odds, pulling together, and standing up against giants who are threatening your way of life. I saw the beauty in what the Exiles were making a stand for at Thayd, and I wanted to convey that to the player. Again, even though we disagree, I applaud the fact that you are listening and that you are an obvious fan of certain game music. I respect your opinion on how you think I should have written more than nine hours of music for a massive MMO, but I'm not sure how you can hear Algoroc (western, guitar-driven music) the same as Celestion (lush, magical, orchestral). Yes they both have strings, but surely that doesn't make them the same piece of music. All that Zelda music you linked to earlier has very common threads from piece to piece… which is what gives it the Zelda personality… they are all unique, but still very much part of the same fabric. They are not so vastly and wildly different that you would be shocked to hear them in the same game. I think we agree to disagree, and we have very different viewpoints on what makes good music and a good melody. I stand by the entire WildStar score and I'm really proud of what I wrote for the game. From the melodies to the instrumentation I feel I was able to hit the emotional context of the areas of the game. I disagree that it's "background noise" or that it lacks in "real melodies". It's difficult not to take the criticism personally because all the music was born out of my creative spirit, but I respect the players and fans enough to hear out their opinions and feedback, and I definitely appreciate you giving me a moment to respond and air out my feedback to your posts. I intend no malice or personal attacks, so please take my comments as a respectful response to your criticism and concerns about the score, and hopefully we part ways with a high five and a strange desire to play some Ocarina of Time. | |} ---- ---- ---- You appear to need visuals to relate to a piece of music. If someone hand you a CD of some game music, and none of the songs are labeled (it's just aaa.mp3, bbb.mp3); it's an obscure game you never heard of, never seen pictures or video; what would your reaction be? That Kokiri Forest music you linked in the first post... I can place that music in Mario Golf. Would it still give you the same adventurous feel that you get from Zelda? | |} ---- Look, Sciela might not be the happiest player on the forums, but I don't think it's fair to call him a troll. He's spoken before about what he likes about the game before and he's not completely unreasonable. People have a tendency to be negative on the forums since it's a commonly held fallacy that if we ever say something nice about the game, Carbine will rest on its laurels figuring that it doesn't need to fix anything. I don't agree with that, but Sciela isn't the only one caught up in the black cloud. | |} ---- Not a troll ? you are really serious there? Saying classical music has no purpose and often doesn't feel alive, all sound the same etc? I call that a troll, or maybe he is deaf ? That guy is either trolling, or doesn't have any taste in music... | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- Yeah, this one got me too. I've dealt with depression my entire life too and I know it's not a reason to treat people poorly. OP, use your CBT (no, it's not a med) :) Musical taste is subjective. OP, if you don't like the music, turn it off and listen to something else while you play and those of us who like it will continue to listen to it and everyone will be happy. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- Here, use this... I have a character named after Audelay. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- I can bet this is part of the exact reason people are getting upset at you. Me, I'm neither upset nor hostile at all, just your responses to Jeff put a bitter taste in my mouth, to be honest... You can tell how much love and passion he put into this score and you just kind of... patronised him and told him it was bad and to find "real music and listen to this". That's your opinion, I just thought it was highly disrespectful :/ Everyone is entitled to an opinion when it comes to music and there is no such thing as being "more qualified" to make an opinion as if it makes you "more right". There is no right nor wrong to opinion. And certainly as far as music is concerned, it is so beautiful as it is a subject and matter that everyone can enjoy and form an opinion on, no matter how musically adept they are. It's just your opinion. Just because I think it is wrong, doesn't mean that is true or fact. Man, I love music. How would I live without it <3 | |} ---- ---- Not saying that nobody should be criticized, but an artist is allowed to paint his painting a certain way and if someone doesn't "get it" it doesn't mean he should change the way he paints. | |} ---- ---- Well, welcome to forums. You are allowed to criticize what you want. You are also subject to criticism for that criticism. Everything you write out on the internet is a piece of your work to be judged. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. | |} ---- It's all in the way you deliver that message… a lot if what you posted hasn't come across that well. Anyway. That stuff you mention is what I would characterize as generic fantasy. And Final Fantasy? Super derivative of everything before it in that jrpg sty.e. Have you ever heard anything like the Algoroc theme in a game? How about the way the Eldan theme makes you feel? I dunno, I see WildStar's music as anything but generic. Especially compared to those others. | |} ---- ---- Because music, like combat, is one of those things in this game that brings the vast majority of us together in praise. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- You really want them to have a theme for every single specific area of every specific zone? Seriously? No. You don't get to compare an MMO to a single player RPG. There is no "Kakriko Forest - Hyrule Fields" versus "Kakriko Forest - Death Mountain." That is an absolutely awful comparison to make. | |} ---- ---- https://soundcloud.com/inhisgroove You're welcome friend :) | |} ---- ---- It's a conspiracy or a hidden message! I personally love the Galeras though, it's a very heroic song. Makes me feel like I'm fighting WW3 or something. | |} ---- I'm not playing Wildstar any more, but these songs will stick in my head for a long long time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIK2NyW1eBw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_F1wwyMuE0 And my favoritest (lol) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNfUA1c_Zoo | |} ---- Really? What have you accomplished in your life that makes you more qualified than everyone else? You have no idea who "we" are and it takes a set of balls to criticize a successful, high profile, professional musician such as Jeff.Of course you are hiding behind the anonymous shroud of the internet so you feel safe. Oh, I forgot, you suffer from depression, so it's ok to be an uncouth a-hole. Q.Q I would love for you to link your IMDB, wikipedia, lastfm, bandcamp, soundcloud, etc page so we can scrutinize YOUR body of work. What movies, plays, or video games has your music been featured in? What is the name of your band? Where do you teach music theory at, Professor? (I really doubt this one as per your comments on classical music lmao) Of course, you could be just some INSIGNIFICANT NOBODY with a computer and an opinion and not a legitimate musician at all... I would bet on the latter. And I can't believe Jeff would be gracious and patient enough to take time out of his busy schedule to come and address your ridiculous post at all. Shows what kind of character and professionalism the guy has. That's kind of like a titan bending down to hold audience with an ant. | |} ---- ---- This post... this post, man... | |} ---- Spare me. In order to determine an individuals level of talent and success you have to have metrics to measure it by. So I'm gathering, by your response, you haven't produced diddly squat aside from the somber and haunting compositions you write in Mom's basement during your fits of depression on that keyboard synthesizer you got for Christmas that one year. I never claimed to be a professional musician nor am I comparing myself to Jeff... you are. You're the one elevating yourself to his level, which in itself is delightfully comedic. It's your pedantic and cavalier attitude to how "wonderful" you are, and the fact that you boldly claim you are more qualified than others to determine what constitutes good music, which is what I am responding to, you insignificant cretin. Until you prove to us that your opinion holds any merit you are nothing. HAHA. Are you on coke? | |} ---- ---- ---- I think that maybe some people are confusing the issue of "generic" music by how the music has been arranged in the game. There are a few pieces of music that play at (mostly) appropriate times throughout the player's adventure through Nexus. This is a little bit different when compared to other games and especially other MMOs such as World of Warcraft. In WoW, there are certain zones that have their own musical profile that isn't shared with other (or very few zones). There are a few zones that share music, but when they do, they are usually similar in some way (the Barrens and Westfall in WoW - both are prairie-like - some swamps/jungles share tunes). In WildStar, the musical tunes are not necessarily tethered by location, but by atmosphere, or by race (the Lopp/Protostar themes). I think that could lead to the illusion that the music is generic (it appears in more than one place) when that may still not be the case. Just for my two-cents, I like zone-specific music - one music for the entire zone EVEN if it does not fit a particular part of the zone. Your music generally does a good job of representing the small area that the player is in very well. For me personally, I like the zones at large to have more personality and uniqueness and am willing to trade off the music pacing itself after the gameplay. Not saying I'm right/wrong, but that is how I view it. As I have said in the past, overall, this game's music is well done. As an aside, one poster claiming to be more or less qualified than anyone else at critiquing the music is laughable. Anybody with ears to hear can have an opinion. Gamers should not be judging music on technicality or even originality - above all else music in games ought to be judged by how it makes the player feel... and I'm the expert on my own personal feelings while I'm playing with the music volume up thank you very much. | |} ---- Hey Detour, I see what you're saying, and I agree with you, which is why I just want to point out that every zone DOES indeed have it's own theme in WildStar. You will never hear the Northern Wilds theme anywhere else but Northern Wilds… or the Celestion forest music (not the aurin theme, but the music in the forests), or the Levian Bay music, etc anywhere else but in those zones … each zone has it's own music and it's own identity that does not get shared. Though when we come across encampments or settlements of Lopp, Protostar, Dominion, Exile, etc it's only natural to throw in their theme for their areas in the game, so "world group" themes will be all over the game, but zone themes are pretty much locked down to the zone. Hope that helps. :) As always, thanks for listening!! Edited August 22, 2014 by Jeff Kurtenacker | |} ---- ---- Jeff you are awesome and the music is fantastic and as soon as an official OST is available I will be snapping it up. Thanks! | |} ---- ----